Artist28174

Cumberland College is a small school in a small town with a small president and a small vision.

posted Thursday, July 02, 2009 5:38 PM | Report Abuse

Brent Hobbs

Artist, Cumberland College is not the same as University of the Cumberlands. And how do you know how tall their president is?

Norm:
"Every teacher knows that people are constantly protesting that they 'can't see' some self-evident inference, but the supposed inability is usually a refusal to see, resulting either from some passion which wants not to see the truth in question or else from sloth which does not want to think at all."
- C. S. Lewis



posted Thursday, July 02, 2009 9:43 PM | Report Abuse

Norman

According to the story linked to this blog, University of the Cumberlands IS the former Cumberland College. Brent, I read your post elsewhere and I appreciate your words about walking the fine line and maintaining balance between being open to minister to the sinner and rejecting his sin. My issue here is that we are not walking that line well. It is simply impossible for any gay person to get any message from our mixed signals other than our "words" say we love you, but our "actions" say "unclean." And now that spirit is prevailing even among young people who want only to minister because they know the love of Jesus and others who claim that same love say by their actions that those young people are unworthy to minister among them. Jesus demonstrated His love for the homosexual by going to the cross for every one of them ... just as He did for every one of us. The actions of University of the Cumberlands say not only can we not love the homosexual, we can't even work with people from a church in which some adults wrestled mightily with how to love them.

posted Thursday, July 02, 2009 10:31 PM | Report Abuse

Brent Hobbs

You're right, I stand corrected on the college name. I was thinking of Cumberland University in Lebanon, TN. http://www.cumberland.edu/ But I still want to know how Artist knows how tall their president is.

We have to draw lines of cooperation where the Gospel is at stake. I believe that Broadway Baptist Church has denied the Gospel by their actions. They may have wrestled mightily, but in the end they came down on the side of allowing sinners to choose their sin over Jesus as an official position of the congregation. They are no longer a church, in my view. In fact, they are working against us. They are encouraging lost people to be satisfied in their present condition.

What does that mean for the youth? Hopefully they will recognize the seriousness of the actions their church is taking and be led away from error. What doesn't help is when people minimize the actions of the church and act like its a minor issue, or one of secondary importance.

Love for sinners is speaking truth (in love) clearly to them. It is unloving to act in a way that gives comfort to a lost person to think they might be under God's grace when they, in fact, remain an object of His wrath. The irony is that Broadway Baptist Church may be acting more hateful than anyone toward the people who need the gospel most.

posted Thursday, July 02, 2009 11:37 PM | Report Abuse

Joe Babb

Of all the flood of preserved sayings of our Lord that come to mind as I've read the responses to your article, Noman, the one of comfort I'd like to send to my brothers and sisters of the Broadway Baptist Church this one rings out: Blessed are you when men shall persecute you.... for my sake. Along with his warning to those who did the deed: Judge not that you be not judged. Speaking of ironies, Mr. Hobbs, how can you make a judgement of a whole church's relationships if you yourself know the Gospel and the teachings of the New Testament. Even the words you quote from C.S. Lewis should give you some light! Jesus' story of the two men on the Temple steps should call us all to our knees. Lord Help us.

posted Friday, July 03, 2009 9:31 AM | Report Abuse

Gene Scarborough

People who are consumed with judging and hating have too little room for love, forgiveness, and just thinking enough to realize their foolishness in the eyes of the world.

Show me just ONE passage from the Gospels where Jesus condemns homosexuals, and I will gladly condemn. I will show you a clear passage from Matthew 23, on the other hand, where Jesus clearly describes the overly righteous Pharisees of being "whitewashed tombs full of dead men't bones." He used other words like "viper" and "hypocrit" to describe their money-hungry Temple at Jerusalem which had turned God's worship into a "den of thieves."

My goodness, they crucified him for telling the truth!!!

For a bunch of churches who are not willing to deal with sexual preditors to kick out Broadway and a "little" (in a spiritual sense) college in Kentucky to withdraw their rooms pretty well speaks for itself. I hope a few read that Cooperative Baptist Fellowship churches and institutions in the area quickly picked up the need and rushed to help with only hours in which to act.

Oh, I forgot, the CBF is of the devil too in the eyes of the SBC!! Oops, quit preachin' and gone to meddlin'--sorry about that!!

posted Friday, July 03, 2009 3:09 PM | Report Abuse

Stephen Trussell

It is hard to find the balance,

About 25 years ago I was real depressed. I knew I needed help. I paid $90 to a Christian Psychiatrist. His advice to me was that didn't I know that depression is a sin. I then paid $70 to see a Christian Psychologist whose advice was I shouldn't feel that way. They were not much help. A member of the church I was attending found out I was depressed. His actual aadvice to me was that if I wanted to commit suicide to drink antifreeze. There is no known cure. That advice really blessed my soul.

But thank God I met a counselor who cared about me. After a couple of times of meeting he told me I was angry frustrated young man. I stormed out of his office because I was so mad. But thank God he told me the truth. And thank God he helped me to deal with my anger.


We have to stand up for righteousness but we have to care about people. To truly care you have to tell people the truth. An excellent book is Speaking Trith In Love by David Powlison.

Still trying to get right, Stephen Trussell

posted Friday, July 03, 2009 5:24 PM | Report Abuse

Tim Marsh

Norman,

Until we can have an arena to discuss homosexuality in a non-threatening environment, we will never come to the love the sinner, hate the sin approach that Jesus did.

Richard Hays' Moral Vision of the New Testament contains a brilliant article on homosexuality.

Bottom line, more people care about the final verdict (either homosexuality is right or wrong) than the complexity of arguments and information to arrive at the final verdict, including hearing the experiences of homosexuals.

Until we can discuss this issue, we will always send mixed signals.

posted Saturday, July 04, 2009 8:13 AM | Report Abuse

Tim Rogers

Norm,

I hear, and believe I understand, your concern with this University canceling the youth group from Broadway. It seems that your concern lies in the message that is being sent to youth that have nothing to do with the decisions of the church. That is a noble concern and I also feel the same frustration. It would seem that if a youth group desires to minister to an area their church leaders decisions should not affect them.

However, we seem to have missed the understanding of a churches doctrinal teaching affecting the youth. Are you suggesting that Broadway's stance for the inclusion of an active homosexual lifestyle as being Christian is a standard that is lost on their young people? Would you suggest that a youth group from a church that is supportive of such a stand should be welcome to possibly present this truth on a mission trip? Would you suggest that a youth group from a church with this theologically flawed position should be given the opportunity to openly present this position in the name of Jesus? Are you further suggesting that Cumberland University is not autonomous enough to make a decision such as they did? Would you even suggest that the church who canceled their invitation does not have the autonomy to do such?

It seems your comments hinge on the virtues of a homosexual lifestyle instead of the autonomy of a local church or the autonomy of a University to make decisions based on their understanding of Biblical truths. Unless you are suggesting that the church and the university are merely towing the party line of the SBC. That would be another argument for another day.

Blessings,
Tim

posted Monday, July 06, 2009 6:25 AM | Report Abuse

Norman

Tim Marsh is right. There is currently in Baptist life no non-threatening environment in which to talk about homosexuality. My point is that Baptists appear earnestly through the work of Bob Stith, which is getting little response, to tell with words that we love homosexuals and any other person, despite their sins. But our actions simply say to them we have our fingers crossed behind our backs. We even hauled to the woodshed Mark Driscoll who is earnestly contending for the truth in a society that doesn't even think "sin" should be in the vocabulary. It's a good thing Jesus wasn't planning a missions trip to Kentucky because he would have been uninvited for fear He picked up the sin virus off the cups and loaves he shared with the outcast.

posted Monday, July 06, 2009 3:46 PM | Report Abuse

Gene Scarborough

Hey folks,

We are discussing an important matter here, BUT I still await an answer to my question above: "Did Jesus condemn homosexuals???"

I am the first to say I DO NOT approve the lifestyle due to its tendency to sexual predation and obsession. If someone with a gay bent tried to "convert" one of my grandchildren, I would be inclined to invite them to a "chipping machine accident." Being in the tree surgery business, I have the proper equipment.

Years ago one of my teenagers attended a college in SC and came to visit me toward the end of his freshman year. There he disclosed his ambiguity concerning his sexual orientation. I was not totally surprised because he came from a family where momma was totally in charge. What disturbed me was his encounter with a Priest who told him it was OK to feel the way he did and also OK to practice those feelings with him!!!

This is where the line is clearly crossed, in my opinion--in this case we are talking hypocrisy among the Pharisees a la Matthew 23. Are we any less negligent by refusing to face the issue of predators not being controlled or outed among SBC clergy?

I think we owe some better responsibility in this area than anything done with Broadway. It is a total farce to say, "We can do nothing due to local church autonomy." With Broadway we have bulldozed over local church autonomy to continue our homophobic ignorance about the gay scene. It is real. It deserves much intelligent research both theologically and psychologically. It is not simple. It has been with us since OT days.

Why can't we have the courage and intelligence to deal with sexual issues? Just because the Apostle Paul had his distorted view doesn't mean we have to continue the paranoia!!

posted Monday, July 06, 2009 8:07 PM | Report Abuse

Brent Hobbs

Gene, the Jesus vs. Paul stuff won't fly here. We take the Bible seriously.

Norm, you're exactly right we do need to be able to discuss this issue openly, publicly, and with grace. Its something many of us haven't done well in the past. I hope we can do better in the future. I think Bob Stith and his task force have laid out a great plan for us.

But I think disfellowshipping Broadway was the right decision. They have clearly crossed a line of allowing open, clear, unrepentant sin among church members. This is a denial of the gospel and compromises our witness if we allow ourselves to be associated with them.

posted Monday, July 06, 2009 9:26 PM | Report Abuse

Gene Scarborough

Jesus vs. Paul is real and worthy of discussion. Any serious and honest reader of the Bible in its original manuscripts soon discovers it is not as simple as many current SBC Baptists think.

A quick read of the Nestle text will clearly show the variant readings of numerous manuscripts. They are all notated for any text used in the main Nestle text cited. It puts a serious question to those who profess an inerrant Bible. You would be less than honest to see it any other way.

We can all believe honestly in an inspired (God breathed) text, but there is serious material relative to a text without any error. In addition the honest Bible scholar will find variants when the words of Paul and others are put alongside those of the Gospels. Even Jesus said, "The scribes and pharisees say this, but I say...." If Jesus did not see the OT teachings or contemporary interpretations as the same as himself, he would have said it different.

You can do all the SBC and BF&M statements you want, but the thinking and studying believer does not have to agree with it. Once, this was the position: "We make this voted on statement, but the autonomous church and believer is not bound by it." Just read the initial BF&M document and you will find our lost concept of Local Church Autonomy clearly stated and now omitted.

The person who believes the Bible world view is total and complete would never fly in an airplane or sail a ship for the Bible clearly taught a flat, 3-story universe with the sky above and waters beneath. If you doubt my statement, then check out how Capurnicus was burned at the stake for stating otherwise based on his celestial observations and earth studies.

Sadly, the history of the Church has been one of quashing debate and daring anyone who differs with the Church Fathers to say a word. Jesus said, "You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." I believe this is true of the homosexual debate as well as inerrency.

I will give you the right to express you opinion...as long as you admit it is your opinion AND give me the right to mine which is representative of a multitude who are no longer welcome in the SBC and NCBSC. We are still here but, regretfully, having to be Baptist outside your circle of friends and leaders.

I trust and like my circle which, I believe, includes the Christ of the Gospels. Those who wrote and believed before and after Jesus' time with us are looking forward to the Messiah or trying to stay true to him looking back. We make a grave mistake, in my opinion, if we think we know more then Jesus--especially with respect to human sexuality.

Again, I ask the same question: What did Jesus say to make us hate homosexuals??? Dare, please, to give me an answer.

posted Tuesday, July 07, 2009 11:27 AM | Report Abuse

Brent Hobbs

Gene, after 8 semesters of biblical Greek, I can assure you I've seen the same textual variants you have. I have a Nestle-Aland GNT sitting on my desk at church. And you, as well-read as you obviously are, should also know that the Chicago Statement on Inerrancy includes the phrase "original autographs." If you want to overlook the fact that inerrantists are not neanderthals, but are capable of dealing (ad-nauseam) with the issues you raise here in an honest and scholarly manner, then you'll continue to misrepresent their view, as you have done above.

I thank you for the gesture, but you don't any authority to give or take my right to 'express my opinion." Neither do I have the authority to do likewise to you (nor would I if I had it). You are free to continue to express any opinion you like. And I'll continue to remind you that Southern Baptists and North Carolina Baptists have overwhelmingly rejected that opinion. It is deadly to the gospel as your comments so plainly illustrate.

Gene, I don't hate homosexuals, and because of that I will continue to call them to repentance and faith in Christ.

But I do thank you for perfectly illustrating the fact that the debate over homosexuality is usually (perhaps not always) between those who believe in the truthfulness of the Scriptures and those who reject it.

posted Tuesday, July 07, 2009 1:20 PM | Report Abuse

Joe Babb

Allow me another word and question for Brother Hobbs. When you refer to the Bible being inerrant do you always qualify the statement with "in the original manuscripts"? Or do you do as I heard Dr. Paige Patterson do when speaking in a revival meeting in Warren County? When reading his text, he made note he was reading from the NIV and later making a point he held it up and said" this is the inerrant Word of God" period. No reference to original autographs. Another question: Are you admiting, conceeding that transtlations are not inerrant? What do you believe about the Bible you use since you do not have an original manuscript?
Finally, I'd like to hear what you think of Jesus parable of the Tares in Matt. 13: 24 ff.
On final question: You stated earlier that a church should not allow any "open, clear,unrepentant sinner" to remain in the body, does this apply to all kinds of sin? Sin is sin. Where is there a church that does not have any unrepenatent sinner?
I too disagree with Paul. He is not the "Chief" of sinners he claims to be - I am? And, I think I remember reading in several references: "there is none righteous, no not one". Lord forgive us all.

posted Tuesday, July 07, 2009 2:08 PM | Report Abuse

Tim Rogers

Brother Joe Babb,

I am not Brent Hobbs, but it seems that you have joined the train that Brother Gene Scarborough has stoked the engine fires. When you refer to the Bible being inerrant do you always qualify the statement with "in the original manuscripts"? In your question you seem to allow that you do not believe the Bible in which you teach out of is God's Word. If you allow for it to contain God's Word then how does one know what is and is not God's Word? If God said John 3:16 but did not say Genesis 1:1 then how is one to know? If through our study and learning we are supposed to be able to discern that then you are telling others that you are smarter than Jesus. He certainly believed all of Moses, and the prophets

You go on to ask our Brother Brent ]i]I'd like to hear what you think of Jesus parable of the Tares in Matt. 13: 24 ff[/i] I certainly do not know what that has to do with inerrancy, but the parabel of the tares deals with the kingdom of God on planet earth not the local church.

You then proceed to take issue with unrepentant sin. So, Joe, do you believe that a professing, practicing bi-sexual transgender person is a Christian?

But where I take issue with you is when you begin comparing your sins to Paul's. It seems, Joe that you have confessed to murder of someone because they confessed Christ as their savior. Joe, when were you placed on trial for that heinous crime? Joe, what sentence did you receive for the horrible crime of separating children from parents as you hauled them off to jail on trumped up charges? Are you penning these words from the maximum security section of Central Prison or are you free on bond?

It seems that we jump the gun on certain issues. I presume that Brother Joe has done such in his response to Brother Brent. I believe we need to understand that Southern Baptist are the ones that have said the bible is without error. Let's leave it at that and trust the truth of Scripture as we move forward to win this world to Christ.

Blessings,
Tim

posted Tuesday, July 07, 2009 4:53 PM | Report Abuse

Joe Babb

Dear Brothers Tim and Brent:
My I humbly once more appeal to the point that neither of you have answered the questions I nor Brother Gene have asked. Smoke screens do not work with me. I will answer those Tim asked of me: First, I did not say my sins were the same kind as Paul, what I meant was I try to do as Paul instructed to "Consider others better than yourselves."(Phil.2:3) Meaning I consider the wrongs I do more serious that what others do. Taking a look at some of Pauls speaking about certain sins take a look at Gal. 5: 19 ff and moreover I believe Jesus had something to say along these lines, something about those who see the smallest of sins in others while overlooking the gross sin in their own lives. Of course, it seems that we again must have a difference of opinion about which sin(s) are the worst. I'll not go there here.
Now back to inerrancy, specifically about the claim that Southern Baptists are the ones that have said the Bible is without error. Brother Brent made reference to the Chicago Statement which by the way is NOT a Baptist statement, much less one by the SBC. Brother Gene's reference to original manuscripts I think was an oversight because the last time I checked I don't think there are any know ones in existence.
As to what I believe about the translations of manuscripts that are available: I believe they are inspired of God as the Bible says "God-breathed". We may disagree on the outcome of that process. But, I do not make claims for them that are not in fact there. Nor will I mislead anyone about it.
Thank you Tim for sharing what you believe about the parable of the tares. As for me, it has several applications for us all, in the here and now: 1. judging other in a condemning way is not what the disciples of Christ are called to do. 2. I think it also applies to judging our fellow christians in the churches. And, I don't see a great divide between the Kingdom of God and the church that Jesus founded. Maybe not equal in every way; after all, Jesus did say the kingdom is within us!.
Now, let me turn a question around for you Tim: Do you believe that a person such as you described CAN NOT become a Christian?
I don't mean to belabor things further; but, I'd still like to hear your answers to the questions Gene and I raised. Thank you for allowing me to share.

posted Tuesday, July 07, 2009 8:15 PM | Report Abuse

Travis

Mr. Scarborough, I have not been a part of this discussion, but I will offer an answer to your question, "What did Jesus say to make us hate homosexuals?". Nothing. I do not believe anyone is calling for hatred toward homosexuals. However, we are called to hate sin and that includes the sin of homosexuality and any other sin you wish to menton. A "straight" man may see a woman he finds attractive and have thoughts of intimate relations with that woman. If he is married, but not to that woman, I think we could agree that to pursue that relationship would be sin, even if he lusts in his heart. The same principle applies to the homosexual. The desire for an intimate relationship with the same gender needs not be pursued, self-control (a fruit of the spirit) needs to be exercised, not self-satisfaction.
May we be reminded that we live in a fallen world and we also live in a falling world; God help us to defy the gravitational pull of sin.

posted Tuesday, July 07, 2009 10:53 PM | Report Abuse

Gene Scarborough

Good discussion--much more articulate and intelligent than most these days! For this I commend all sides. What we are doing is to ley out those things which seem to separate us, and I am not sure we will ever overcome them.

AN INERRANT BIBLE--It is clear to support such a thing one must use the "original manuscript" argument. In essence, you are admitting there is no such thing as a manuscript or translation which is inerrant! Be honest, we have (nor will likely ever have) the "perfect text" to which you defer.

SO--where's the beef? You are saying what our professors, fired with hatred, taught most of us who would listen. I had classmates in 1967-70 who refused to listen. They waited until the Pressler-Patterson coalition figured out the political formula to crush the once Autonomous SBC and drive out the "infidels."

There were no "infidels" at my SEBTS, only men of honesty and integrity trying to introduce students to the wider things of church history and biblical study. They did a great job in my opinion. Those who wanted a "conservative SEBTS" always had Leo Green and others. However, they were not willing to admit there was one conservative word spoken at Southeastern. With rightous indignation, they wrecked a fine institution and, in its place, instituted a Liberty Univ., Jr. Those who doubt my observation need only to look at the credentials of the current faculty and see how many ultra-conservative Doctorates reside there. Where are the mainline doctorates?

Where is the diversity which broadened the horizons of sincere students from the inception to the destruction in the late 80's? According to my Gospel reading, the hottest fires of Hell await those who deal in hypocracy--the ones who know better, but play a game to destroy with their egos driving the activity. This is a prophetic word and I pray you do a careful "soul check" to see if you might be guilty of a clearly delineated sin worse than homosexuality!!

SIN--the Greek word is "harmatia" which gives a word picture of separation. Anything which separates us from God, one another, fellow humans qualifies as SIN. All cultures define "sin" in their traditions. Interestingly, no 2 cultures have exactly the same list of "sins." Does this give anyone pause for thought???

If "sin" were so simple, then the Pharasees might have treated Jesus and his followers differently--listening and following rather than destroying. You see, the Pharasees and Jewish leaders had God by a neat leash of Talmudic laws. They had "built a fence" around the 10 Commandments much like the SBC created its new BF&M. Thinking you can sum up religion in your neat nutshell, you made it well nigh impossible for those who think otherwise to work and witness alongside the ones with all the answers to all the questions!! Quite frankly, I am uncomfortable around such "saints." They killed Jesus and they seem to think George Bush's "righteous" war in Iraq and the uncontrolled Stock Market were wonderful.

Well, we have no "weapons of mass destruction" any more than we have the "original manuscripts." In essence, we have a manufactured rational to kill one another. I find this rather pathetic in light of Jesus' words clearly stated in the Gospels: "Love and forgive one another--love as I have loved you."

This applies to the sexually deviant, the obese and mean preacher refusing to let college students dance on the Baptist campus, likewise commanding people be perfect before taking communion in his "perfect" Baptist church. I still have the clear words of Matthew 23 ringing in my head as I write this. You fellows insisting on an inerrant Bible and damn those who differ, need to read this carefully. IT IS ANOTHER PROPHETIC WORD!

I could say much more, but many of us are trying to share a prophetic word and we don't need to write the entire Bible prophecy again. Prophets, when truely described, try to call for reconciliation in the here-and-now. Prophets don't deal with the future except to describe the results on refusing to reconcile with God and one another. Again, a lack of reconciliation is SIN in the eyes of God.

It is entirely possible to wall yourself off from God and one another through "good works" as it is to drink, cuss, chase women and innocent children, etc.--some of these sins the SBC has refused to pursue in the last few years.

In my observation, the SBC has shown iteself to a lost world as harsh, judgmental, and unloving. For this reason we have failed to grow and win converts. If we were as interested in loving people to God instead of beating them into submission to the BF&M, we might be growing as is the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship and other loving followers of Christ.

Why are Mormons growing so rapidly??? They have a set of scriptures I personally don't need in addition to my Bible, but they practice love and support within the church and they don't beat people in the head with the Book of Mormon to win them. I know many Baptists who are dedicated Mormons today BECAUSE that group (who incidentally believe in God & Christ like us) add Joseph Smith to their list of "prophets." I don't buy his "prophecy," but I do commend their approach of witness and caring for one another to the hard-hearted brothers of the SBC.

You are my brothers, but I'm not proud of the way you practice "brotherly love" these days!! Think and pray about this matter as I pray for you. I don't claim to have all the answers as you seem to, BUT I still believe in Autonomy and the right to "agree to disagree" yet still share the Gospel in a cooperating fashion. I haven't seen much cooperation since 1979!

Until we look into God's eyes and he looks into our hearts, there is still time to repent from being hard-hearted and other SIN (separation) which keeps us from God and one another.

posted Wednesday, July 08, 2009 11:58 AM | Report Abuse

Randy

We can minister to homosexuals, in love tell them they are a sinner (as we all are) and to repent from sin. That would mean either giving up homosexuality (which can be done) or not practice it. I know several homosexuals who are cured/delivered from this lifestyle.

But when a church does not condemn sin, but allows sin in the midst of the church, that church is wrong. Sin has to be dealt with and since Broadway did not, they are not in cooperation with Southern Baptist. Rember AI?


posted Thursday, July 09, 2009 4:46 PM | Report Abuse

Gene Scarborough

Let's not dodge the basic definition of SIN. If we are participating, then we need to change our ways.

With respect to homosexuality, too many are oversimplifying and thinking only same sex attraction is the problem.

Again, why are we dodging sexual predation in the SBC? Why are we obsessing with lesser giving in a 40% reduced economy? Perhaps, obsession with money over clean living is our problem--ya think???

Let's stay on track with the discussion: Biblical inerrancy, kicking out Broadway, trying to find a way of ministry without turning our backs on a needy world missing a large chunk of love.

Could a lack of being loved be the core of opting for a same sex lover?? Could an obsession with the physical ecstacy of love be at the base of ecstatic spiritual experiences--i.e, speaking in tongues and being transported to penticostal excesses?

Just asking a few important questions which deal with this real area of discussion. I thank our Editor for starting with some honest observations!.



posted Thursday, July 09, 2009 7:06 PM | Report Abuse